1 00:00:22,210 --> 00:00:09,110 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:29,749 --> 00:00:24,890 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:29,759 show number 243 for the 16th of jun 2013 4 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:31,710 Richard Saunders here with you from 5 00:00:37,310 --> 00:00:34,530 Sydney Australia bit dosed up on the old 6 00:00:41,569 --> 00:00:37,320 meds at the moment because I somehow 7 00:00:44,390 --> 00:00:41,579 have a sinus infection it's not very 8 00:00:48,319 --> 00:00:44,400 nice I must admit and it's not going 9 00:00:49,790 --> 00:00:48,329 away quickly it's not very nice at all 10 00:00:51,979 --> 00:00:49,800 all those people out there who have had 11 00:00:53,930 --> 00:00:51,989 sinus infections will know what I mean 12 00:00:58,490 --> 00:00:53,940 and for all you people who have never 13 00:01:01,340 --> 00:00:58,500 had one I hope you never do nevertheless 14 00:01:03,619 --> 00:01:01,350 we'll carry on on this week's show we 15 00:01:05,899 --> 00:01:03,629 dive into the pages of the latest 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:05,909 magazine from Australian skeptics verse 17 00:01:10,130 --> 00:01:08,490 skeptic and in the issue just about the 18 00:01:13,219 --> 00:01:10,140 hit your letter boxes now if you're a 19 00:01:15,499 --> 00:01:13,229 subscriber you'll read about the water 20 00:01:17,660 --> 00:01:15,509 divining tests in MIT emitter a couple 21 00:01:20,929 --> 00:01:17,670 of months ago well at the top of the 22 00:01:24,139 --> 00:01:20,939 show I read out my report from the amid 23 00:01:27,289 --> 00:01:24,149 emitter tests more importantly my angle 24 00:01:29,870 --> 00:01:27,299 my view might take on the mind of the 25 00:01:31,849 --> 00:01:29,880 believer what are that what's going on 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:31,859 in the mind of the water diviner and who 27 00:01:36,709 --> 00:01:34,770 are these characters my report coming up 28 00:01:39,349 --> 00:01:36,719 the top of the show that's followed by 29 00:01:41,989 --> 00:01:39,359 dr. Richie reports and what a doctor 30 00:01:44,630 --> 00:01:41,999 Rachel reports it is the Australian 31 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:44,640 vaccination Network have just been in 32 00:01:50,749 --> 00:01:47,490 court fighting fighting the ruling that 33 00:01:53,719 --> 00:01:50,759 says they have to change their name dr. 34 00:01:55,849 --> 00:01:53,729 rachy brings us a report from the 35 00:01:57,770 --> 00:01:55,859 proceedings in the court what an 36 00:02:00,410 --> 00:01:57,780 interesting wow what an interesting dr. 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:00,420 HC reports this week following that it's 38 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:02,490 a week in science from our dear friends 39 00:02:09,859 --> 00:02:04,130 at the Royal Institution of Australia 40 00:02:11,870 --> 00:02:09,869 www RI aus oga you I wonder what has 41 00:02:13,910 --> 00:02:11,880 been happening in this week in science 42 00:02:15,770 --> 00:02:13,920 thanks to our good friend Paul Willis 43 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:15,780 and then we deal once more into the 44 00:02:24,050 --> 00:02:19,290 pages of the skeptic magazine to find 45 00:02:27,410 --> 00:02:24,060 our stars yes your stars be you Pisces 46 00:02:30,860 --> 00:02:27,420 Gemini Sagittarius or author UKISS the 47 00:02:31,930 --> 00:02:30,870 stars from the pages of the skeptic 48 00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:31,940 magazine 49 00:02:38,220 --> 00:02:34,640 round off the show Maynard's spooky 50 00:02:40,630 --> 00:02:38,230 action without interest interview with a 51 00:02:44,950 --> 00:02:40,640 cartoonist a cartoonist from the 52 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:44,960 Manchester skeptics known as polyp or 53 00:02:51,010 --> 00:02:49,130 Paul take your pick anyway he came to 54 00:02:52,810 --> 00:02:51,020 talk to the Sydney skeptics a couple of 55 00:02:57,100 --> 00:02:52,820 weeks ago and may not caught up with him 56 00:02:58,810 --> 00:02:57,110 in our special studio we have at Sydney 57 00:03:02,080 --> 00:02:58,820 skeptics in the pub otherwise known as 58 00:03:05,350 --> 00:03:02,090 the stairwell conspiracy theories and 59 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:05,360 more with maynards spooky action and a 60 00:03:08,950 --> 00:03:07,250 message from our friends in the 61 00:03:11,830 --> 00:03:08,960 Australian Capital Territory the 62 00:03:14,650 --> 00:03:11,840 Canberra skeptics now they have a they 63 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:14,660 have frequent talks very active I must 64 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:15,890 say the Canberra skeptics and don't 65 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:17,630 forget they'll be holding the yeah 66 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:20,090 Australian skeptics national convention 67 00:03:27,010 --> 00:03:22,370 a bit later in the air looking forward 68 00:03:29,290 --> 00:03:27,020 to that but in July on saturday the 69 00:03:32,230 --> 00:03:29,300 sixth of july we've got an interesting 70 00:03:36,010 --> 00:03:32,240 talk by nick where pseudoscience in the 71 00:03:40,270 --> 00:03:36,020 climate change debate free admission now 72 00:03:42,699 --> 00:03:40,280 that's on the 6th july from 130 to 330 73 00:03:44,229 --> 00:03:42,709 and following that talk it's a good 74 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:44,239 opportunity to have a drink with your 75 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:46,970 fellow skeptics at King o'malley's irish 76 00:03:55,030 --> 00:03:51,290 pub for more information visit WWE are 77 00:03:59,080 --> 00:03:55,040 skeptics org a you and our reporter 78 00:04:04,180 --> 00:03:59,090 Maynard requests invites and entices you 79 00:04:06,550 --> 00:04:04,190 to visit w WM a nerd comedy you to 80 00:04:10,690 --> 00:04:06,560 listen to the music of the amazing 81 00:04:14,470 --> 00:04:10,700 meeting las vegas part to the music of 82 00:04:16,599 --> 00:04:14,480 tam find there also may nods extended 83 00:04:18,729 --> 00:04:16,609 interviews with the john flensburg from 84 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:18,739 they might be giants and his extended 85 00:04:25,330 --> 00:04:20,870 interview with our good friend George 86 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:25,340 rub Maynard calm da to you just before 87 00:04:30,010 --> 00:04:27,530 we get into the show I'm looking forward 88 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:30,020 to meeting as many skeptics own fans as 89 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:32,930 I can at the amazing meeting in Las 90 00:04:37,750 --> 00:04:36,050 Vegas if you've never been to an amazing 91 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:37,760 meeting before you're in for an amazing 92 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:40,490 time and I've just discovered that I'll 93 00:04:45,140 --> 00:04:42,710 be doing some water divining 94 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:45,150 demonstrations in the hallway I'm 95 00:04:48,380 --> 00:04:47,010 looking forward to that they'll be very 96 00:04:50,660 --> 00:04:48,390 busy if you're coming to the amazing 97 00:04:52,820 --> 00:04:50,670 meeting come up and say hello and I'll 98 00:04:55,310 --> 00:04:52,830 give you some water divining lessons 99 00:04:57,290 --> 00:04:55,320 well shall i say a demonstration well 100 00:05:00,170 --> 00:04:57,300 shall i say a way for you to test water 101 00:05:02,540 --> 00:05:00,180 divining for yourself that and Power 102 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:02,550 Balance tests and demonstrations too I 103 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:05,130 can't wait the amazing meeting coming up 104 00:05:10,190 --> 00:05:08,490 next month in Las Vegas hope to see you 105 00:05:12,830 --> 00:05:10,200 there but for now I'm going to run 106 00:05:17,990 --> 00:05:12,840 downstairs i'm going to have a nice cup 107 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:18,000 of tea with lemon and gin yes yes 108 00:05:23,420 --> 00:05:21,210 that'll fix me up pretty quick well I'm 109 00:05:41,790 --> 00:05:23,430 doing that I hope you enjoy the skeptic 110 00:05:47,020 --> 00:05:44,650 from the pages of the skeptic the 111 00:05:52,030 --> 00:05:47,030 journal from Australian skeptics volume 112 00:05:54,310 --> 00:05:52,040 33 number 24 jun 2013 following on from 113 00:05:56,770 --> 00:05:54,320 reports about the meter meter water 114 00:05:59,800 --> 00:05:56,780 divining test held by australian 115 00:06:03,400 --> 00:05:59,810 skeptics earlier this year divining at 116 00:06:06,250 --> 00:06:03,410 meta three the people Richard Saunders 117 00:06:08,500 --> 00:06:06,260 looks at the people behind divining why 118 00:06:11,380 --> 00:06:08,510 do they do it and why do they continue 119 00:06:13,660 --> 00:06:11,390 to do it people often ask me why I 120 00:06:15,970 --> 00:06:13,670 became a skeptic there are many reasons 121 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:15,980 but towards the top of the list the work 122 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:19,490 of James Randi no surprise i know but 123 00:06:24,010 --> 00:06:21,770 one area of Randy's work stands out for 124 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:24,020 me in particular around nineteen eighty 125 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:26,450 at the invitation of Dick Smith Randy 126 00:06:31,030 --> 00:06:28,490 traveled to Australia to conduct the now 127 00:06:32,980 --> 00:06:31,040 legendary water divining tests the 128 00:06:36,370 --> 00:06:32,990 documentary of these tests is available 129 00:06:38,860 --> 00:06:36,380 online simply google James Randi in 130 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:38,870 Australia it goes without saying that 131 00:06:43,930 --> 00:06:41,090 this is a classic of skeptical 132 00:06:46,870 --> 00:06:43,940 investigation and a must-see for any 133 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:46,880 skeptic young or old but putting the 134 00:06:50,890 --> 00:06:48,890 actual testing aside for a moment i 135 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:50,900 would like to concentrate on the real 136 00:06:56,860 --> 00:06:54,710 stars of the show the diviners we all 137 00:06:59,409 --> 00:06:56,870 may have an idea in our mind of what a 138 00:07:03,909 --> 00:06:59,419 classic Ozzie water diviner might be 139 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:03,919 like a bushy in their 50s to 70s broad 140 00:07:08,170 --> 00:07:06,050 Australian accent nice sort of bloke or 141 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:08,180 from time to time a woman someone who 142 00:07:12,580 --> 00:07:10,130 comes across as honest with an air of 143 00:07:15,670 --> 00:07:12,590 worldly wisdom gained from years of life 144 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:15,680 in the real countryside well I must say 145 00:07:20,590 --> 00:07:19,010 this time the stereotype is spot-on we 146 00:07:24,010 --> 00:07:20,600 first encounter these wonderful ozzy 147 00:07:25,719 --> 00:07:24,020 folks in the documentary from 1980 we 148 00:07:27,850 --> 00:07:25,729 meet them again or beard completely 149 00:07:29,380 --> 00:07:27,860 different people nine years later when 150 00:07:31,719 --> 00:07:29,390 Australian skeptics tested water 151 00:07:35,830 --> 00:07:31,729 divining near Sydney and then again in 152 00:07:38,830 --> 00:07:35,840 2001 and 2002 in meter meter for more 153 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:38,840 tests again the 2002 test is available 154 00:07:44,860 --> 00:07:42,290 online simply google mighty meter muster 155 00:07:47,290 --> 00:07:44,870 water divining test this brings us to 156 00:07:50,469 --> 00:07:47,300 the most recent tests at MIT emitter in 157 00:07:53,620 --> 00:07:50,479 March 2013 although none of the water 158 00:07:55,180 --> 00:07:53,630 diviners from 2002 were back or from 159 00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:55,190 1980 or from nineteen 160 00:08:00,850 --> 00:07:58,370 he night for that matter their spirit is 161 00:08:03,100 --> 00:08:00,860 alive and well and what we might call 162 00:08:05,380 --> 00:08:03,110 the next generation of water diviners 163 00:08:07,990 --> 00:08:05,390 the colorful crew who turned up this 164 00:08:11,290 --> 00:08:08,000 time would have been in their mid 20s or 165 00:08:14,290 --> 00:08:11,300 30s in 1980 a few younger ones wouldn't 166 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:14,300 even have been born but by and large you 167 00:08:19,030 --> 00:08:16,910 could pluck them out of time and place 168 00:08:21,190 --> 00:08:19,040 them back in any one of the tests from 169 00:08:23,380 --> 00:08:21,200 the past and no one would know the 170 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:23,390 difference they have a certain look and 171 00:08:28,330 --> 00:08:25,730 outlook a way of dressing a way of 172 00:08:30,850 --> 00:08:28,340 speaking in a way of thinking that has 173 00:08:32,980 --> 00:08:30,860 not changed in all these years but why 174 00:08:35,380 --> 00:08:32,990 do they do it and how can they be so 175 00:08:37,990 --> 00:08:35,390 creative with their responses to failed 176 00:08:39,969 --> 00:08:38,000 tests to understand this question we 177 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:39,979 must try and put ourselves into the mind 178 00:08:44,740 --> 00:08:42,650 of the believer it's not as hard to do 179 00:08:47,260 --> 00:08:44,750 as you may think say for example you 180 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:47,270 play the piano now every now and then 181 00:08:51,730 --> 00:08:49,130 you build out a tune people sing along 182 00:08:53,530 --> 00:08:51,740 you even make a few bucks out of it now 183 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:53,540 imagine that one day if somebody tells 184 00:08:57,850 --> 00:08:55,730 you that if you can play a certain tune 185 00:09:00,010 --> 00:08:57,860 on the piano for them in their house 186 00:09:01,690 --> 00:09:00,020 they will pay you a hundred thousand 187 00:09:04,090 --> 00:09:01,700 dollars it seems like all your 188 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:04,100 Christmases have come at once you turn 189 00:09:09,370 --> 00:09:06,410 up inspect the piano have a look at the 190 00:09:12,010 --> 00:09:09,380 house all seems fine but when you sit 191 00:09:15,610 --> 00:09:12,020 down to start to play what comes out of 192 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:15,620 the piano is awful your fingers seem to 193 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:18,890 be playing the right notes but no real 194 00:09:23,950 --> 00:09:21,170 tune is coming out the money is 195 00:09:26,110 --> 00:09:23,960 withdrawn you have failed if this 196 00:09:28,900 --> 00:09:26,120 happened to you you would at once be 197 00:09:31,420 --> 00:09:28,910 looking for the trick or the reason as 198 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:31,430 to why you suddenly fail to do something 199 00:09:38,410 --> 00:09:35,210 you know full well you can do this I 200 00:09:40,750 --> 00:09:38,420 submit is what is going on in the head 201 00:09:43,750 --> 00:09:40,760 of the water diviners when they fail the 202 00:09:46,270 --> 00:09:43,760 tests to them what a divining is real 203 00:09:49,150 --> 00:09:46,280 it's something they do it's beyond 204 00:09:51,100 --> 00:09:49,160 question that it works I understand why 205 00:09:54,130 --> 00:09:51,110 they need to find a reason to explain 206 00:09:56,260 --> 00:09:54,140 their lack of success on the day for me 207 00:09:58,300 --> 00:09:56,270 one of the tell-tale signs that somebody 208 00:10:00,940 --> 00:09:58,310 is honest in their belief is the length 209 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:00,950 and creativity they will go to in order 210 00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:03,530 for them to preserve their world view 211 00:10:08,050 --> 00:10:05,510 you can see it in their faces as they 212 00:10:08,670 --> 00:10:08,060 study the situation and come up with 213 00:10:11,430 --> 00:10:08,680 what 214 00:10:14,310 --> 00:10:11,440 them explains the failure this 215 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:14,320 explanation then becomes a certainty and 216 00:10:21,750 --> 00:10:18,250 satisfies a vital need they have at the 217 00:10:23,940 --> 00:10:21,760 time they have found a reason to justify 218 00:10:27,150 --> 00:10:23,950 their lack of success and that reason 219 00:10:30,510 --> 00:10:27,160 has nothing to do with whether water 220 00:10:33,449 --> 00:10:30,520 divining works or not in fact the 221 00:10:36,060 --> 00:10:33,459 question of whether it works is not even 222 00:10:39,630 --> 00:10:36,070 entertained the water diviners in meter 223 00:10:41,790 --> 00:10:39,640 in 2013 behaved exactly as predicted and 224 00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:41,800 they thought along the same lines as 225 00:10:46,590 --> 00:10:44,230 their predecessors I found them to be 226 00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:46,600 honest and sincere with a real 227 00:10:51,329 --> 00:10:49,120 expectation they would succeed and 228 00:10:53,370 --> 00:10:51,339 collect the money they are a genuine 229 00:10:55,170 --> 00:10:53,380 part of the Australian landscape no 230 00:11:06,620 --> 00:10:55,180 matter what we might think of their 231 00:11:11,510 --> 00:11:09,380 hi I'm Finn and I'm Rebecca and where 232 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:11,520 the skipper cons skipper Collins is an 233 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:13,290 Irish podcast by the Dublin skeptics 234 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:14,970 society it takes a conversational 235 00:11:17,780 --> 00:11:16,530 reverent look at science news and 236 00:11:21,260 --> 00:11:17,790 skeptical topics from an Irish 237 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:21,270 perspective you can find us at WWDC 238 00:11:37,870 --> 00:11:32,730 Afrikaans com now it's time for dr. 239 00:11:43,940 --> 00:11:40,190 hello listeners and welcome to another 240 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:43,950 episode of dr. Richie reports now this 241 00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:45,930 week the Australian vaccination Network 242 00:11:50,300 --> 00:11:48,150 were in court again challenging the 243 00:11:53,810 --> 00:11:50,310 order by the Office of Fair Trading to 244 00:11:55,310 --> 00:11:53,820 change their name now the oft ordered 245 00:11:57,050 --> 00:11:55,320 them to do so following multiple 246 00:11:59,780 --> 00:11:57,060 complaints from the public and 247 00:12:02,470 --> 00:11:59,790 subsequent changes to the incorporated 248 00:12:05,690 --> 00:12:02,480 associations act earlier in the year 249 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:05,700 enabling such an order to be made the 250 00:12:09,980 --> 00:12:07,410 Minister for Fair Trading Anthony 251 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:09,990 Roberts said the avians name does not 252 00:12:14,990 --> 00:12:12,210 accurately reflect the organization's 253 00:12:17,630 --> 00:12:15,000 purpose and what it stands for which is 254 00:12:20,420 --> 00:12:17,640 primarily to discourage the immunization 255 00:12:22,490 --> 00:12:20,430 of children now the first step in the 256 00:12:24,650 --> 00:12:22,500 avian challenging in order to change its 257 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:24,660 name was an internal investigation by 258 00:12:30,650 --> 00:12:27,090 the oft and this was completed in 259 00:12:32,330 --> 00:12:30,660 February 2013 the principal solicitor 260 00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:32,340 from the Department of Finance and 261 00:12:37,550 --> 00:12:34,200 services concluded following his 262 00:12:40,070 --> 00:12:37,560 investigation all in all the available 263 00:12:42,620 --> 00:12:40,080 evidence shows in my opinion that the 264 00:12:45,580 --> 00:12:42,630 avian is mostly concerned with opposing 265 00:12:48,620 --> 00:12:45,590 vaccination and mandatory immunization 266 00:12:51,230 --> 00:12:48,630 when issues have two sides it takes just 267 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:51,240 one of them one would expect that an 268 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:53,250 organization with the name Australian 269 00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:55,410 vaccination network would provide 270 00:13:00,440 --> 00:12:57,360 comprehensive and credible information 271 00:13:02,660 --> 00:13:00,450 on vaccinations in Australia and a 272 00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:02,670 balanced view in what is involved in the 273 00:13:08,810 --> 00:13:07,200 process the avian does not do this so 274 00:13:11,390 --> 00:13:08,820 the avian have been good at getting 275 00:13:13,010 --> 00:13:11,400 legislation changed recently so far 276 00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:13,020 they've been instrumental in getting the 277 00:13:18,110 --> 00:13:16,110 H Triple C laws changed and as a result 278 00:13:20,510 --> 00:13:18,120 there is a current investigation into 279 00:13:22,730 --> 00:13:20,520 their activities and the child care 280 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:22,740 two laws which indeed may change again 281 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:24,930 given the avian was silly enough to 282 00:13:29,180 --> 00:13:26,970 publicly proclaim that everyone should 283 00:13:32,330 --> 00:13:29,190 join a fake church to get a religious 284 00:13:34,340 --> 00:13:32,340 exemption as a direct result of this 285 00:13:36,290 --> 00:13:34,350 pressure is now being applied to close a 286 00:13:39,530 --> 00:13:36,300 religious exemption loophole in new 287 00:13:41,450 --> 00:13:39,540 south wales and the avian have also been 288 00:13:43,550 --> 00:13:41,460 under continual fire from all angles 289 00:13:46,070 --> 00:13:43,560 including a continued attack from the 290 00:13:48,530 --> 00:13:46,080 murdoch media who have only just begun 291 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:48,540 to wind back there no job no play 292 00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:51,210 campaign after more than a month even 293 00:13:55,070 --> 00:13:52,980 today there was another article about 294 00:13:57,020 --> 00:13:55,080 the avian being investigated for fraud 295 00:13:58,640 --> 00:13:57,030 and not revealing their conflicts of 296 00:14:01,340 --> 00:13:58,650 interest when it comes to speaking to 297 00:14:03,380 --> 00:14:01,350 the media but as you expect the avian 298 00:14:05,330 --> 00:14:03,390 didn't agree with the oft name change 299 00:14:07,070 --> 00:14:05,340 order so on Thursday and Friday they 300 00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:07,080 took them to court to challenge this 301 00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:10,560 claim you might think therefore that if 302 00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:12,000 they bother to go to court they would 303 00:14:16,970 --> 00:14:14,790 focus on composing an argument detailing 304 00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:16,980 why their name is not misleading in an 305 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:19,440 effort to convince a magistrate but 306 00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:21,930 since we're talking about the avian here 307 00:14:27,950 --> 00:14:25,110 you'd be wrong obviously in addition 308 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:27,960 that would be no fun so some members of 309 00:14:32,090 --> 00:14:30,330 stopped the avian were in attendance for 310 00:14:34,130 --> 00:14:32,100 the one and a half day hearing and it is 311 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:34,140 from their tweets and notes made by 312 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:36,770 Shelley Stockton that I bring to you 313 00:14:43,190 --> 00:14:41,190 avian vs. the oft the loess fest so 314 00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:43,200 beginning at three p.m. on thursday our 315 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:45,540 peeps noted that both merrill dory and 316 00:14:50,420 --> 00:14:47,250 greg BTW were in attendance and the 317 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:50,430 place was packed there were also large 318 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:52,530 cardboard laminated graphs which 319 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:54,810 although never seen clearly were thought 320 00:14:58,970 --> 00:14:56,610 to be the famous vaccine-preventable 321 00:15:02,750 --> 00:14:58,980 diseases declined prior to vaccines 322 00:15:05,060 --> 00:15:02,760 gambit how these are relevant to a name 323 00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:05,070 change hearing is not clear but you'll 324 00:15:09,740 --> 00:15:06,900 see that the avian tried to use them 325 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:09,750 anyway her honor was heard to repeat the 326 00:15:13,070 --> 00:15:11,490 word irrelevant many times throughout 327 00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:13,080 the course of the hearing and this may 328 00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:15,660 be one of those cases much of the first 329 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:17,280 day appears to have been taken up with 330 00:15:21,740 --> 00:15:19,290 faffing and obfuscation on the part of 331 00:15:24,950 --> 00:15:21,750 the avian none of which was relevant to 332 00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:24,960 the matter at hand ie explain to us why 333 00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:27,710 you think your name is not misleading 334 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:30,630 instead the avian barrister argued that 335 00:15:34,170 --> 00:15:32,250 stopped the avian were in cahoots with 336 00:15:36,570 --> 00:15:34,180 the government that sa vm 337 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:36,580 big meanies freedom of speech something 338 00:15:41,340 --> 00:15:39,010 something vaccines are not effective and 339 00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:41,350 tried to admit new evidence including 340 00:15:45,660 --> 00:15:43,960 witnesses for the avian one of these 341 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:45,670 witnesses was thought to be Professor 342 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:47,890 Brian Martin the supervisor of Judy 343 00:15:53,460 --> 00:15:50,529 Wiley Minh to which her honor said what 344 00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:53,470 is he an expert in when the avian tried 345 00:15:58,050 --> 00:15:55,600 to introduce Brian Martin's evidence the 346 00:16:00,720 --> 00:15:58,060 oft lawyer objected saying his affidavit 347 00:16:04,110 --> 00:16:00,730 is totally irrelevant and he has no idea 348 00:16:06,269 --> 00:16:04,120 how it found its way into the court in 349 00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:06,279 any case evidence was to be presented in 350 00:16:11,010 --> 00:16:08,320 the form of affidavits not expert 351 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:11,020 witness testimony I wonder of Professor 352 00:16:14,460 --> 00:16:12,250 Martin called the train up from 353 00:16:16,199 --> 00:16:14,470 Wollongong for nothing the avians 354 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:16,209 jabbering about people being mean to 355 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:17,890 them on the internet was quickly shut 356 00:16:21,740 --> 00:16:20,050 down by the magistrate who stated she is 357 00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:21,750 not interested in a he-said she-said 358 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:24,700 argument and whether Meryl thinks she is 359 00:16:30,510 --> 00:16:26,890 anti-vaccine or not is irrelevant it's 360 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:30,520 how she is perceived after the avians 361 00:16:33,570 --> 00:16:32,110 barrister mumbled something about their 362 00:16:35,730 --> 00:16:33,580 code of ethics preventing them from 363 00:16:37,889 --> 00:16:35,740 being anti backs and everyone'll old for 364 00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:37,899 a bit proceedings ended and the meetings 365 00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:41,110 from SF Leanne retired to the pub so not 366 00:16:47,010 --> 00:16:44,529 a lot was achieved on day one entered a 367 00:16:49,199 --> 00:16:47,020 two so day two opened with the 368 00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:49,209 revelation and the very interesting 369 00:16:54,060 --> 00:16:51,310 revelation that Meryl Dorie had 370 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:54,070 apparently emailed the oft barrister and 371 00:16:59,519 --> 00:16:57,490 the magistrate overnight apparently to 372 00:17:03,540 --> 00:16:59,529 complain about people live tweeting the 373 00:17:06,059 --> 00:17:03,550 proceedings now i am not a lawyer but 374 00:17:08,790 --> 00:17:06,069 this seems like an extremely unwise 375 00:17:10,559 --> 00:17:08,800 thing to do from my perspective we can 376 00:17:13,049 --> 00:17:10,569 only hope that Meryl may be pulled a 377 00:17:14,669 --> 00:17:13,059 freeman on the land again as she has 378 00:17:17,429 --> 00:17:14,679 before when she was corresponding with 379 00:17:18,780 --> 00:17:17,439 the Therapeutic Goods Administration now 380 00:17:20,790 --> 00:17:18,790 if you don't know what freeman of the 381 00:17:23,010 --> 00:17:20,800 land is i encourage you to google it 382 00:17:25,740 --> 00:17:23,020 it's incredibly funny and you will be 383 00:17:27,390 --> 00:17:25,750 rewarded with lots of love in any case 384 00:17:29,610 --> 00:17:27,400 the magistrate did not acquiesce 385 00:17:32,220 --> 00:17:29,620 tomorrow's request stop live tweeting 386 00:17:33,870 --> 00:17:32,230 yet the irony of meryl attempting to 387 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:33,880 quash live tweeting while constantly 388 00:17:39,210 --> 00:17:35,890 yelling free speech has not escaped 389 00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:39,220 anyone here so the avian lawyer on data 390 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:41,200 took one last punt at arguing about 391 00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:43,030 vaccination before bring brutally 392 00:17:47,910 --> 00:17:45,760 rebuffed by the magistrate half a day 393 00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:47,920 and several hours later we finally get 394 00:17:53,010 --> 00:17:50,020 to the evidence for the case which is 395 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:53,020 why we're here so I have borrowed 396 00:17:56,250 --> 00:17:54,730 heavily from Shelley's detailed notes 397 00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:56,260 here and thanks for paying attention 398 00:18:01,380 --> 00:17:59,200 Shelley the eye of TS submission was in 399 00:18:04,020 --> 00:18:01,390 three volumes and volume 1 was the size 400 00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:04,030 of a phone book the next stage of 401 00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:06,160 proceedings is deciding which evidence 402 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:08,260 can be admitted so there was a long 403 00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:10,450 lengthy period of legalese and crossing 404 00:18:16,110 --> 00:18:14,110 out paragraphs with red texture etc then 405 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:16,120 the AVM barrister steps forward to argue 406 00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:19,690 their case he argues that the avn can be 407 00:18:24,780 --> 00:18:22,000 considered a vaccine choice lobby 408 00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:24,790 because some of their material says ask 409 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:27,790 your GP or naturopath and lots of people 410 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:29,770 who have been initially taken in by the 411 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:33,930 ABN eventually end up vaccinating okay 412 00:18:38,990 --> 00:18:36,730 he then says that the avn is not obliged 413 00:18:41,010 --> 00:18:39,000 to present the other side just like 414 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:41,020 anti-abortion anti euthanasia or 415 00:18:45,710 --> 00:18:43,570 anti-logging organizations would not 416 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:45,720 invite readers to read opposing views 417 00:18:52,290 --> 00:18:48,610 right but then doesn't that make the 418 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:52,300 avian anti facts here then presents a 419 00:18:57,060 --> 00:18:54,670 screenshot from the avian Facebook page 420 00:18:59,220 --> 00:18:57,070 where some pro and anti discussion had 421 00:19:02,490 --> 00:18:59,230 occurred and also the yahoo group 422 00:19:05,130 --> 00:19:02,500 respectful debate cite as evidence that 423 00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:05,140 the avian allows opposing views I guess 424 00:19:09,540 --> 00:19:07,270 he forgot to show the About section of 425 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:09,550 the avian Facebook page which clearly 426 00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:11,410 states that no opposing views are 427 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:13,240 allowed and unless you are a fan you 428 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:15,850 will be deleted and banned a statement 429 00:19:19,170 --> 00:19:17,410 from greg BTW is then read out 430 00:19:21,690 --> 00:19:19,180 describing how the avian would never 431 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:21,700 tell parents not to vaccinate because it 432 00:19:25,710 --> 00:19:24,130 says so in their code of ethics in 433 00:19:27,780 --> 00:19:25,720 response to which the gallery falls 434 00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:27,790 about laughing at the use of a B&N code 435 00:19:32,820 --> 00:19:31,270 of ethics in the same sentence the avian 436 00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:32,830 barrister Dennis's there is nothing 437 00:19:37,290 --> 00:19:35,350 wrong with the name itself rather it's 438 00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:37,300 the way it's used the complainant 439 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:40,240 objects to yes nobody disagrees with 440 00:19:45,290 --> 00:19:43,690 that and anyway the only complaining 441 00:19:47,970 --> 00:19:45,300 because they want it for themselves 442 00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:47,980 really so this is all about the office 443 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:49,720 of fair trading wanting to steal your 444 00:19:55,310 --> 00:19:52,930 name okay then I'm not exactly sure 445 00:19:58,140 --> 00:19:55,320 where he's going with this but I okay 446 00:20:00,810 --> 00:19:58,150 the avian barrister also argued against 447 00:20:01,650 --> 00:20:00,820 the name change since one it was fine 448 00:20:06,060 --> 00:20:01,660 when they register 449 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:06,070 in 1997 and to a complaint to the oft in 450 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:08,650 2002 about the name being misleading was 451 00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:12,250 unsuccessful but the legislation 452 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:14,320 regulating misleading names was only 453 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:17,530 changed in February 2013 so this point 454 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:20,410 is moot he also argued for the 455 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:22,570 magistrate to consider the inconvenience 456 00:20:27,180 --> 00:20:25,330 such a change would bring to the avn to 457 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:27,190 which the magistrate apparently appeared 458 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:30,850 unmoved and unimpressed an argument that 459 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:32,170 there are other groups around the world 460 00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:34,210 that also have a misleading names so 461 00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:37,390 nananana also seemed fairly useless in 462 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:39,520 the context of changes in legislation in 463 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:41,770 New South Wales and fails to win the 464 00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:45,250 barrister any friends the DFT's evidence 465 00:20:49,410 --> 00:20:47,320 is next and it consists of statements 466 00:20:52,550 --> 00:20:49,420 from people describing the circumstances 467 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:52,560 surrounding them being misled by the avn 468 00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:55,330 this includes evidence from the 469 00:20:59,160 --> 00:20:57,370 Australian College of Midwives who 470 00:21:01,230 --> 00:20:59,170 publicly claimed to have been misled 471 00:21:04,170 --> 00:21:01,240 when sending out invitations for an 472 00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:04,180 avian seminar they later retracted the 473 00:21:09,660 --> 00:21:06,310 information and apologised claiming they 474 00:21:12,450 --> 00:21:09,670 didn't know the avian was anti vax now 475 00:21:15,450 --> 00:21:12,460 incredibly the avian also presented the 476 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:15,460 College of Midwives story but claimed 477 00:21:18,810 --> 00:21:17,170 that the College of Midwives were lying 478 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:18,820 when they issued a retraction and 479 00:21:23,250 --> 00:21:21,490 apology rather they only did so because 480 00:21:26,970 --> 00:21:23,260 they were embarrassed by the public 481 00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:26,980 reaction according to a statement tabled 482 00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:28,990 by one of the midwives she has been on 483 00:21:34,050 --> 00:21:30,880 the avian mailing list for years and 484 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:34,060 knew exactly what they were about now I 485 00:21:37,740 --> 00:21:35,410 don't really know what to make of this 486 00:21:39,540 --> 00:21:37,750 but suffice it to say the oft is 487 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:39,550 evidence consisted of much more than 488 00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:41,410 just the College of Midwives so I doubt 489 00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:43,240 this would deleterious ly impact their 490 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:45,940 case the oft s barristers evidence 491 00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:47,740 continued with the brows of the avian 492 00:21:53,820 --> 00:21:50,860 website looking for the other side and 493 00:21:56,130 --> 00:21:53,830 of course turning up nothing quoting 494 00:21:58,680 --> 00:21:56,140 from the website he said because every 495 00:22:02,190 --> 00:21:58,690 issue has two sides whereas the other 496 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:02,200 side healthy unvaccinated and vaccine 497 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:03,910 damaged he says well where are their 498 00:22:09,030 --> 00:22:06,610 healthy vaccinated and quotes all 499 00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:09,040 matters and all of the information yet 500 00:22:13,620 --> 00:22:10,840 there was no healthy vaccinated 501 00:22:15,389 --> 00:22:13,630 information in response the avians 502 00:22:17,489 --> 00:22:15,399 barrister argued that the inclusion 503 00:22:19,709 --> 00:22:17,499 of vaccinations in the name of avian 504 00:22:21,239 --> 00:22:19,719 doesn't necessitate the provision of 505 00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:21,249 probe acts information and that 506 00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:23,200 information on the website is not 507 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:25,919 required to be a 50-50 pro anti 508 00:22:30,869 --> 00:22:28,210 suggestions that the information the AVM 509 00:22:32,999 --> 00:22:30,879 provides counterbalances the prevailing 510 00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:33,009 medical orthodoxy and may not be 511 00:22:37,950 --> 00:22:35,830 available elsewhere is only in support 512 00:22:40,229 --> 00:22:37,960 of them changing their name this is 513 00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:40,239 Merrill's argument to that the avian 514 00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:41,710 provides the other side of the argument 515 00:22:48,419 --> 00:22:44,769 and if this is so then they should call 516 00:22:50,279 --> 00:22:48,429 themselves anti-vaccine by this time it 517 00:22:52,889 --> 00:22:50,289 was four o'clock on friday and her honor 518 00:22:55,229 --> 00:22:52,899 retired with decision reserved meaning 519 00:22:56,759 --> 00:22:55,239 she has to go away read the evidence and 520 00:22:59,609 --> 00:22:56,769 come back with the decision at a later 521 00:23:02,509 --> 00:22:59,619 date there was no indication of when 522 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:02,519 this might happen so we just wait I 523 00:23:06,479 --> 00:23:04,450 don't care to make any predictions 524 00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:06,489 because I don't understand this section 525 00:23:11,070 --> 00:23:08,529 of the law and in general law isn't 526 00:23:13,169 --> 00:23:11,080 asked and last time I was gobsmacked 527 00:23:17,159 --> 00:23:13,179 when the H Triple C case was won by the 528 00:23:19,109 --> 00:23:17,169 avian but I will say this based on what 529 00:23:21,570 --> 00:23:19,119 I saw from peeps who were there the 530 00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:21,580 avians evidence was weak and if I were 531 00:23:25,499 --> 00:23:23,830 her honor I would have taken 100 points 532 00:23:28,409 --> 00:23:25,509 from them for wasting all of thursday 533 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:28,419 and half of friday with irrelevant 534 00:23:34,109 --> 00:23:31,450 information but sadly I don't think the 535 00:23:36,060 --> 00:23:34,119 law works that way if only it did you'll 536 00:23:37,950 --> 00:23:36,070 find the accompanying blog post on this 537 00:23:39,810 --> 00:23:37,960 week's dr. Rachel reports on the 538 00:23:43,109 --> 00:23:39,820 official blog of the skeptic zone at 539 00:23:52,810 --> 00:23:43,119 skeptics book calm and until next time 540 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:55,399 hi there this is Ben Radford from 541 00:24:00,139 --> 00:23:57,450 skeptical inquirer magazine the monster 542 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:00,149 talk podcast Discovery News skeptical 543 00:24:03,049 --> 00:24:02,010 conferences and elsewhere you may also 544 00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:03,059 know me as the guy that saw the 545 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:04,950 chupacabra mystery I want to let you 546 00:24:08,659 --> 00:24:06,210 know about a cool new board game I 547 00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:08,669 created called undead apocalypse war of 548 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:10,289 the damned undead apocalypse has 549 00:24:14,180 --> 00:24:12,570 vampires and werewolves and zombies all 550 00:24:16,970 --> 00:24:14,190 battling it out in a post-apocalyptic 551 00:24:19,220 --> 00:24:16,980 world with humans so certainly like Mad 552 00:24:20,990 --> 00:24:19,230 Max meets the walking dead so if you're 553 00:24:23,299 --> 00:24:21,000 interested in zombies and werewolves and 554 00:24:25,639 --> 00:24:23,309 vampires or board games of any kind or 555 00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:25,649 my work please check it out thanks i 556 00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:28,799 appreciate undead apocalypse the fast 557 00:24:34,129 --> 00:24:30,510 paced board game where you control 558 00:24:37,250 --> 00:24:34,139 armies of zombies vampires werewolves 559 00:24:40,220 --> 00:24:37,260 and humans in Earth's final war of the 560 00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:40,230 damned learn more at undead board game 561 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:43,289 com or support us on kickstarter com 562 00:24:56,450 --> 00:24:53,610 before july eighth welcome to a week in 563 00:24:59,330 --> 00:24:56,460 science from our iOS this week could a 564 00:25:01,490 --> 00:24:59,340 cheetah beat Usain Bolt a blood test for 565 00:25:08,989 --> 00:25:01,500 Down syndrome and the migration of 566 00:25:14,789 --> 00:25:12,089 the cheetah may be the fastest animal on 567 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:14,799 land but is speed really its best 568 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:16,690 hunting tool their hunting behavior 569 00:25:21,450 --> 00:25:19,570 suggests no with the big cats not 570 00:25:24,869 --> 00:25:21,460 generally hitting their top speed in a 571 00:25:26,729 --> 00:25:24,879 chase instead a study of five wild 572 00:25:29,099 --> 00:25:26,739 cheetahs found that their ability to 573 00:25:31,409 --> 00:25:29,109 change direction and accelerate quickly 574 00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:31,419 is what makes them such successful 575 00:25:36,419 --> 00:25:33,849 predators this fast acceleration 576 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:36,429 requires a muscle power output four 577 00:25:44,070 --> 00:25:39,129 times that of champion sprinter Usain 578 00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:44,080 Bolt debate has raged as to when humans 579 00:25:49,769 --> 00:25:47,049 migrated Out of Africa to Southeast Asia 580 00:25:51,779 --> 00:25:49,779 new findings suggest the migration 581 00:25:54,089 --> 00:25:51,789 happened after the volcanic super 582 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:54,099 eruption of Mount Toba in Indonesia 583 00:25:59,999 --> 00:25:57,970 around 74,000 years ago genetic and 584 00:26:01,919 --> 00:26:00,009 archeological evidence suggests that 585 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:01,929 modern humans migrated along 586 00:26:08,249 --> 00:26:04,690 resource-rich coastlines from Africa to 587 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:08,259 South East Asia around 50 to 60,000 588 00:26:14,460 --> 00:26:10,690 years ago you're listening to a week in 589 00:26:17,159 --> 00:26:14,470 science from RI oz and now for science 590 00:26:19,469 --> 00:26:17,169 headlines in 30 seconds a simple blood 591 00:26:21,419 --> 00:26:19,479 test for mum can accurately detect Down 592 00:26:24,239 --> 00:26:21,429 syndrome and other abnormalities in 593 00:26:26,129 --> 00:26:24,249 first trimester babies obesity during 594 00:26:28,769 --> 00:26:26,139 pregnancy increases the risk of preterm 595 00:26:30,869 --> 00:26:28,779 births loggerhead turtles use site 596 00:26:33,989 --> 00:26:30,879 rather than sound or smell to detect 597 00:26:37,019 --> 00:26:33,999 snacks and researchers have found nail 598 00:26:39,899 --> 00:26:37,029 stem cells in mice using them to regrow 599 00:26:41,909 --> 00:26:39,909 amputated digits the location of the 600 00:26:44,159 --> 00:26:41,919 stem cells explains why mammalian 601 00:26:48,940 --> 00:26:44,169 fingers and toes don't regrow if 602 00:26:55,299 --> 00:26:52,330 and finally your baby may have more 603 00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:55,309 sympathy than you think a Japanese study 604 00:27:00,340 --> 00:26:57,679 examined when babies develop feelings of 605 00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:00,350 sympathy using an animation of a blue 606 00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:03,110 ball attacking a yellow box babies as 607 00:27:06,850 --> 00:27:05,360 young as 10 months preferentially 608 00:27:09,580 --> 00:27:06,860 reached for the victim in the film 609 00:27:11,409 --> 00:27:09,590 rather than the aggressor the same 610 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:11,419 result was found when the colors and 611 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:13,370 shapes were switched this shows that 612 00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:15,769 infants not only evaluate the roles of 613 00:27:22,509 --> 00:27:18,710 victims and aggressors in situations but 614 00:27:24,669 --> 00:27:22,519 feel sympathy for the victim our next 615 00:27:27,519 --> 00:27:24,679 science behind the headlines event will 616 00:27:29,259 --> 00:27:27,529 look at personal genetic profiling from 617 00:27:32,169 --> 00:27:29,269 Angelina's double mastectomy to 618 00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:32,179 increased insurance premiums this is a 619 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:35,809 hot topic join us live online or at the 620 00:27:43,710 --> 00:27:38,769 science exchange in Adelaide on jun 25 621 00:27:46,029 --> 00:27:43,720 details at RI aus dot org dot a you 622 00:27:48,580 --> 00:27:46,039 that's been the highlights of another 623 00:27:50,500 --> 00:27:48,590 big week in science for more information 624 00:27:55,899 --> 00:27:50,510 and other science news check out the our 625 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:55,909 oils website RI a us all GU where you 626 00:28:00,639 --> 00:27:58,010 can also sign up for notifications of 627 00:28:02,460 --> 00:28:00,649 future episodes you can follow a week in 628 00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:02,470 science on twitter using the hashtag 629 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:06,110 week inside I'm poreless and on behalf 630 00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:08,570 of the our oils team I'll see you next 631 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:17,060 yeah guys I was talking to Richard 632 00:28:21,050 --> 00:28:19,050 solvency today all right he said if we 633 00:28:23,180 --> 00:28:21,060 record a trailer for our podcast 634 00:28:24,830 --> 00:28:23,190 skeptics with a que he'd play it on 635 00:28:26,150 --> 00:28:24,840 there unless you're nice nice of him 636 00:28:27,380 --> 00:28:26,160 that's very generous it's pretty good 637 00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:27,390 i'm not sure what we could do though I 638 00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:29,340 mean well suppose you tell people the 639 00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:31,470 shows about but it's basic as this yeah 640 00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:33,720 but yeah but you know we talk about 641 00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:35,520 science and skepticism and things that's 642 00:28:38,930 --> 00:28:36,960 that's true as fuzzier you mentioned the 643 00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:38,940 website address what merseyside skeptics 644 00:28:42,260 --> 00:28:40,710 talk don't you take ya ya oughta text 645 00:28:43,940 --> 00:28:42,270 searches Knighton's oh and then we could 646 00:28:47,690 --> 00:28:43,950 end with like a big song like the 647 00:28:54,409 --> 00:28:47,700 skeptics with okay god no no no no don't 648 00:28:58,759 --> 00:28:56,779 from the base of the skeptic magazine 649 00:29:02,840 --> 00:28:58,769 from Australian skeptics we bring you 650 00:29:07,489 --> 00:29:02,850 your stars 4 jun 2013 without astrologer 651 00:29:10,519 --> 00:29:07,499 dr. doer eager Aries when the heavens 652 00:29:11,899 --> 00:29:10,529 fall we'll see shooting stars Roger 653 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:11,909 Moore is a good example of a shooting 654 00:29:18,289 --> 00:29:15,690 star or a star that shoots and wonder if 655 00:29:21,979 --> 00:29:18,299 he reads this astrology column Taurus 656 00:29:25,099 --> 00:29:21,989 the poor pip in your stars in heart not 657 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:25,109 very good spellers I know this as I too 658 00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:29,730 suffer from fear spilling the message is 659 00:29:36,109 --> 00:29:32,580 never give a screw a list and yours 660 00:29:37,869 --> 00:29:36,119 group bad Gemini owing to a strike no 661 00:29:40,789 --> 00:29:37,879 black cats will cross your path today 662 00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:40,799 the cats are demanding better conditions 663 00:29:46,820 --> 00:29:42,960 and will be replaced by strikebreaking 664 00:29:49,310 --> 00:29:46,830 rats those rats are really rats cancer 665 00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:49,320 you cannot undo what has been done but 666 00:29:55,159 --> 00:29:52,080 sometimes you can do it again unless you 667 00:29:58,669 --> 00:29:55,169 want to undo it then you cannot undo it 668 00:30:00,830 --> 00:29:58,679 eight again once it's being done again 669 00:30:05,149 --> 00:30:00,840 look it's not me saying this it's the 670 00:30:07,249 --> 00:30:05,159 Stars I promise you leo your father's 671 00:30:10,249 --> 00:30:07,259 father's father was your grandsons 672 00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:10,259 great-great-great grandfather I think I 673 00:30:16,129 --> 00:30:14,159 better ask the stars hmm nope they're 674 00:30:18,220 --> 00:30:16,139 not sure about this one either maybe he 675 00:30:21,619 --> 00:30:18,230 was your great-great-great-grandmother 676 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:21,629 Virgo today is not yesterday but it will 677 00:30:27,229 --> 00:30:24,210 be tomorrow tomorrow for you is another 678 00:30:29,479 --> 00:30:27,239 day make sure you live for today and not 679 00:30:31,519 --> 00:30:29,489 for tomorrow that will be yesterday the 680 00:30:33,229 --> 00:30:31,529 day after tomorrow if you are reading 681 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:33,239 this tomorrow then ignore this wisdom 682 00:30:38,090 --> 00:30:36,450 until next week libera people born under 683 00:30:40,460 --> 00:30:38,100 your star sign sometimes suffer from 684 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:40,470 writer's block I lived in a writer's 685 00:30:43,729 --> 00:30:42,090 block once the noise from the other 686 00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:43,739 writers clacking away on the computer 687 00:30:48,649 --> 00:30:46,799 stopped me for writing Scorpio the stars 688 00:30:51,019 --> 00:30:48,659 have revealed to me the secret of 689 00:30:54,259 --> 00:30:51,029 winning lotto if you buy all the lotto 690 00:30:57,139 --> 00:30:54,269 tickets on sale you're sure to win make 691 00:30:59,090 --> 00:30:57,149 sense to me author UKISS like sands 692 00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,100 through the hourglass so are the days of 693 00:31:03,409 --> 00:31:01,440 our lives I bet there are more grains of 694 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:03,419 sand in an hour glass then days in your 695 00:31:09,910 --> 00:31:06,770 life time to stop watching daytime TV 696 00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:09,920 and watch it at night Sagittarius you're 697 00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:12,320 lucky dice are loaded against you not 698 00:31:17,490 --> 00:31:14,960 very lucky eh if you roll two sevens 699 00:31:20,530 --> 00:31:17,500 you'll know something has gone wrong 700 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:20,540 Capricorn the last word of this sentence 701 00:31:25,180 --> 00:31:22,250 is something you'll see in the future Oh 702 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:25,190 too late now it's the past it's amazing 703 00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:27,130 how the universe works isn't it 704 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:30,080 enquiries someone you know is having a 705 00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:32,810 birthday this month or last month or 706 00:31:39,370 --> 00:31:36,320 next month yes I too am staggered at the 707 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:39,380 insights given to us by the Stars Pisces 708 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:42,050 you used to be a skeptic but now I feel 709 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:44,330 you're not so sure I used to be a 710 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:46,010 believer but I think being a skeptic is 711 00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:48,170 more fun this believing you're a skeptic 712 00:32:00,040 --> 00:31:50,720 make you less of a skeptic not even the 713 00:32:02,740 --> 00:32:00,050 stars know the answer to that hi this is 714 00:32:06,790 --> 00:32:02,750 brian dunning from the sceptile cast ats 715 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:06,800 kept I calm for 15 years now dr. Bob's 716 00:32:11,290 --> 00:32:08,930 trivia quiz has been a part of 717 00:32:13,660 --> 00:32:11,300 Australian skeptics each month the 718 00:32:16,510 --> 00:32:13,670 mysterious dr. Bob comes up with 719 00:32:19,690 --> 00:32:16,520 questions that defy all logic and reason 720 00:32:21,910 --> 00:32:19,700 only the best of the best dare attempt 721 00:32:25,150 --> 00:32:21,920 to answer these brain twisters and no 722 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:25,160 google won't help you visit dr. Bob's 723 00:32:34,090 --> 00:32:30,730 quiz wordpress.com that's dr be OBS quiz 724 00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:34,100 wordpress.com to take part and to see 725 00:32:40,090 --> 00:32:37,070 the complete archive of dr. bob's trivia 726 00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:40,100 quiz i'm brian dunning from sceptile 727 00:32:57,070 --> 00:32:53,960 here's may not spooky action at the 728 00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:00,020 look I'm talking to our featured speaker 729 00:33:04,130 --> 00:33:01,830 hit skeptics to the pub tonight and as 730 00:33:05,450 --> 00:33:04,140 usual I was completely up the back next 731 00:33:07,850 --> 00:33:05,460 to a group of women that are still there 732 00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:07,860 that we're having an intense argument 733 00:33:11,570 --> 00:33:09,600 about work using phrases such as my 734 00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:11,580 office door was always open let me be 735 00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:13,950 clear and at the end of the day so I 736 00:33:16,430 --> 00:33:15,120 knew that wasn't going to go very well 737 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:16,440 and they actually started screaming 738 00:33:19,250 --> 00:33:18,090 during your speech now what is your name 739 00:33:21,230 --> 00:33:19,260 and what were you doing here this 740 00:33:23,780 --> 00:33:21,240 evening sir right I'm a news Paul I'm 741 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:23,790 from Manchester skeptics and I was 742 00:33:28,010 --> 00:33:25,650 talking about conspiracy theories I 743 00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:28,020 could see your slides I saw Alan Jones 744 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:29,760 up there I saw I saw a few of the famous 745 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:32,010 Alec Alec's gender I'll see because of 746 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:33,930 it we always get a little mixed up say 747 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:36,570 Alex in America Alan Jones here ah right 748 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:39,450 ok mm mm and uh what the hell what is 749 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:40,770 brought you into talking about 750 00:33:43,850 --> 00:33:42,450 conspiracy theories and I'm in 751 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:43,860 Manchester there'd be a few about the 752 00:33:49,970 --> 00:33:47,850 football team alone um I'm a political 753 00:33:52,790 --> 00:33:49,980 activist I work as a political 754 00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:52,800 cartoonist and assign my work those were 755 00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:54,960 your drawings yeah yeah yeah it's not 756 00:34:00,560 --> 00:33:56,880 all of them I I mean half the drawings I 757 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:00,570 I showed with this other artist who's a 758 00:34:06,830 --> 00:34:02,970 conspiracy theorist Africa who I've been 759 00:34:08,810 --> 00:34:06,840 having this long-term spat with so I was 760 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:08,820 kind of basing my talk about around that 761 00:34:14,090 --> 00:34:11,370 about what what a political activist 762 00:34:16,910 --> 00:34:14,100 like me makes of the conspiracy theory 763 00:34:20,180 --> 00:34:16,920 people who kind of share some of the 764 00:34:23,240 --> 00:34:20,190 same anti George Bush sentiments as I do 765 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:23,250 but go off indenter into fairy fairy 766 00:34:27,740 --> 00:34:25,050 land with their ideas look I'm a 767 00:34:29,690 --> 00:34:27,750 champagne socialist from way back and so 768 00:34:32,270 --> 00:34:29,700 I'm kind of on board with you there and 769 00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:32,280 how did you get into doing this why 770 00:34:36,410 --> 00:34:34,320 decide to go on and take on these 771 00:34:37,700 --> 00:34:36,420 conspiracies it was there one day you 772 00:34:39,050 --> 00:34:37,710 just saw something you thought no this 773 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:39,060 beyond the pale I got to start getting 774 00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:40,650 into this I think it's about stuff 775 00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:42,960 that's on your own patch you know I mean 776 00:34:48,980 --> 00:34:45,990 I very much want people to to associate 777 00:34:51,110 --> 00:34:48,990 the Occupy movement and and 778 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:51,120 environmental radical environmental 779 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:52,170 campaigning with something that's 780 00:34:54,650 --> 00:34:53,610 respectable and something that is 781 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:54,660 actually trying to make the world a 782 00:34:57,410 --> 00:34:56,610 better place and when you've got people 783 00:34:59,450 --> 00:34:57,420 who 784 00:35:01,640 --> 00:34:59,460 by going off on all this kind of rubbish 785 00:35:03,470 --> 00:35:01,650 about the twin Trade Towers being an 786 00:35:06,530 --> 00:35:03,480 inside job I think they I think they 787 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:06,540 very much discredit conventional 788 00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:08,730 political campaigners and so I feel it's 789 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:11,730 kind of it's my sort of patch that's 790 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:13,530 always been the case or has it grown up 791 00:35:17,569 --> 00:35:15,569 more in the last decade or so I mean in 792 00:35:19,370 --> 00:35:17,579 the 60s there was plenty of theories I 793 00:35:21,020 --> 00:35:19,380 mean Kennedy kind of bought himself into 794 00:35:22,849 --> 00:35:21,030 power in some ways there's a bit of you 795 00:35:24,589 --> 00:35:22,859 know tampering with their votes going on 796 00:35:26,180 --> 00:35:24,599 there with Johnson even perhaps so I 797 00:35:27,859 --> 00:35:26,190 mean the mark conspiracy theories I mean 798 00:35:29,539 --> 00:35:27,869 Hitler had to get there somehow there 799 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:29,549 was a few conspiracies that have their 800 00:35:34,490 --> 00:35:32,130 basis in reality yeah well I mean do I 801 00:35:35,870 --> 00:35:34,500 was saying earlier to somebody that if 802 00:35:38,420 --> 00:35:35,880 somebody had approached you and talk to 803 00:35:40,490 --> 00:35:38,430 you about Abu Ghraib and sort of said 804 00:35:42,589 --> 00:35:40,500 well what's happening in these prisons 805 00:35:45,170 --> 00:35:42,599 that America is established is that 806 00:35:47,870 --> 00:35:45,180 people are being assembled into naked 807 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:47,880 pyramids you'd be got come on give me a 808 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:49,530 give me a break you know the Americans 809 00:35:53,870 --> 00:35:52,170 might behaved very badly sometimes but 810 00:35:55,579 --> 00:35:53,880 they don't go that far so I mean some 811 00:35:58,069 --> 00:35:55,589 conspiracy theories turned out to be 812 00:36:01,400 --> 00:35:58,079 true and and I'm five bear you know 813 00:36:03,770 --> 00:36:01,410 after watching Oliver Stone's JFK I was 814 00:36:06,349 --> 00:36:03,780 a bit tempted I was a bit tempted to 815 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:06,359 snagging into the lift yes back into the 816 00:36:09,650 --> 00:36:07,770 list I think you start looking into 817 00:36:11,660 --> 00:36:09,660 actual with the ballistics behind these 818 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:11,670 things but it's you know I mean it's 819 00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:13,290 almost as if their political metaphors 820 00:36:19,370 --> 00:36:17,280 these things so it's like if you're if 821 00:36:22,910 --> 00:36:19,380 you're really angry with the brush 822 00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:22,920 regime it's not that big a step to start 823 00:36:26,150 --> 00:36:24,569 believing that they actually did an 824 00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:26,160 inside job because they are they are 825 00:36:33,010 --> 00:36:29,609 choir devious little crowd but of course 826 00:36:34,940 --> 00:36:33,020 it's it's massively discrediting if 827 00:36:37,099 --> 00:36:34,950 radicals are going to go around saying 828 00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:37,109 these things so I suppose it's about 829 00:36:40,460 --> 00:36:38,400 it's about trying to keep your own house 830 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:40,470 in order for me because I consider 831 00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:41,970 myself to be a radical and yet these 832 00:36:44,990 --> 00:36:43,710 people are talking such nonsense and how 833 00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:45,000 do you feel about that when it actually 834 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:46,680 turns into boots on the ground in actual 835 00:36:51,079 --> 00:36:48,690 votes like in the UK lately you've had 836 00:36:53,329 --> 00:36:51,089 the ultra-right party doing quite well 837 00:36:55,220 --> 00:36:53,339 in elections now as a lefty that would 838 00:36:57,079 --> 00:36:55,230 be that's almost like time to get the 839 00:36:58,160 --> 00:36:57,089 bat out and fight in the streets yeah i 840 00:36:59,650 --> 00:36:58,170 mean this is this is one of things i 841 00:37:01,599 --> 00:36:59,660 talked about tonight 842 00:37:05,380 --> 00:37:01,609 you know you might think it's harmless 843 00:37:07,750 --> 00:37:05,390 that some radical campaigners flirt with 844 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:07,760 the idea of 911 being an inside job but 845 00:37:11,950 --> 00:37:09,770 what you'll also find is that on the 846 00:37:14,230 --> 00:37:11,960 back of that it's a bit like the 847 00:37:16,870 --> 00:37:14,240 slippery slope of I'll accept one idea 848 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:16,880 and then I'll accept the next people are 849 00:37:22,420 --> 00:37:19,130 starting to talk about how the Holocaust 850 00:37:25,210 --> 00:37:22,430 was was actually hoax you know and it 851 00:37:28,180 --> 00:37:25,220 was faked which of course resembles the 852 00:37:30,579 --> 00:37:28,190 911 case doesn't it and 853 00:37:32,050 --> 00:37:30,589 a minority of people who are angry about 854 00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:32,060 what's happening in Palestine for 855 00:37:37,089 --> 00:37:35,089 perfectly good reasons are starting to 856 00:37:41,079 --> 00:37:37,099 kind of flirt with with that kind of 857 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:41,089 talk that not only is Israel phone 858 00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:43,130 foreign policy completely unacceptable 859 00:37:48,819 --> 00:37:46,430 but you know maybe maybe the the Jews 860 00:37:51,370 --> 00:37:48,829 actually flick the Holocaust as well and 861 00:37:53,170 --> 00:37:51,380 as the lefties we have to be so on guard 862 00:37:55,329 --> 00:37:53,180 with this sort of thing you know we 863 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:55,339 really have to police our own shop and 864 00:37:59,200 --> 00:37:56,690 make sure that we don't drift in that 865 00:38:01,540 --> 00:37:59,210 direction and where does someone fit 866 00:38:04,359 --> 00:38:01,550 into the UK seem like a David Icke who 867 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:04,369 has the probably the wildest conspiracy 868 00:38:08,740 --> 00:38:07,130 theories and and on on the surface the 869 00:38:10,359 --> 00:38:08,750 idea that that there is a realm of 870 00:38:11,980 --> 00:38:10,369 demons that are drawing power from the 871 00:38:13,630 --> 00:38:11,990 negative energy generated by our 872 00:38:16,089 --> 00:38:13,640 thoughts and images on this planet that 873 00:38:17,950 --> 00:38:16,099 flies with me I go see why not why not 874 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:17,960 of course that energy hasn't been 875 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:19,490 measured or tested or anything but I've 876 00:38:22,359 --> 00:38:20,690 been in a room and some fairly negative 877 00:38:24,370 --> 00:38:22,369 people and I've got some energy off that 878 00:38:27,670 --> 00:38:24,380 so I mean there are some people that go 879 00:38:29,530 --> 00:38:27,680 for that with David well I mean do yo if 880 00:38:32,170 --> 00:38:29,540 people like David like were only talking 881 00:38:34,059 --> 00:38:32,180 about these things as metaphors I think 882 00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:34,069 it would be amusing and entertaining and 883 00:38:37,809 --> 00:38:35,839 as I said during my talk some of the 884 00:38:41,170 --> 00:38:37,819 things that Ike says about consumerism 885 00:38:42,460 --> 00:38:41,180 I'm bombing sympathy whiz I mean you may 886 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:42,470 or may not know that he became 887 00:38:47,740 --> 00:38:45,050 spokesperson for the for the Green Party 888 00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:47,750 only UK football commentator to the 889 00:38:52,030 --> 00:38:50,000 Green Party football commentator well a 890 00:38:54,250 --> 00:38:52,040 goalie first of all he was a goalie I 891 00:38:56,260 --> 00:38:54,260 think that's it for Norwich I don't 892 00:38:58,240 --> 00:38:56,270 follow football he was goalie then he 893 00:39:01,690 --> 00:38:58,250 was a sports commentator then he 894 00:39:05,380 --> 00:39:01,700 suddenly became this this savior figure 895 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:05,390 and a lot of the I don't know slightly 896 00:39:08,980 --> 00:39:07,490 mystically inclined people I know will 897 00:39:11,170 --> 00:39:08,990 will sympathize with a lot of things he 898 00:39:12,839 --> 00:39:11,180 says because the metaphor that there is 899 00:39:15,819 --> 00:39:12,849 this horrible reptilian elite 900 00:39:19,839 --> 00:39:15,829 controlling the world I think to some 901 00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:19,849 extent might reflect reality but only 902 00:39:24,730 --> 00:39:22,160 feeling take it seriously as a metaphor 903 00:39:26,380 --> 00:39:24,740 yes exactly and so yeah that's where 904 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:26,390 he's not taking very seriously but then 905 00:39:30,130 --> 00:39:28,250 as I said during my talk did he get does 906 00:39:31,780 --> 00:39:30,140 he have a certain and anti-semitic tail 907 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:31,790 on the end of his followers as well or 908 00:39:35,470 --> 00:39:33,410 not I think that's usually debatable 909 00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:35,480 lots of people have sort of said he's 910 00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:37,920 using reptiles as a symbol for 911 00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:42,000 for Jewish people but I mean Joe in the 912 00:39:47,359 --> 00:39:43,680 research I did today just to polish the 913 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:47,369 talk she found that an article of his 914 00:39:53,210 --> 00:39:49,970 was on this site called radio islam 915 00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:53,220 which was virulent the anti-semitic and 916 00:40:01,630 --> 00:39:57,990 you know he was talking about certain 917 00:40:03,859 --> 00:40:01,640 people use Zionism as a code word for 918 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:03,869 what they want to say about Jewish 919 00:40:08,839 --> 00:40:05,970 people when in fact it's correct usage 920 00:40:10,460 --> 00:40:08,849 is usually the political intent of the 921 00:40:12,349 --> 00:40:10,470 Israeli government that the correct way 922 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:12,359 to these people who believe that they're 923 00:40:17,630 --> 00:40:14,730 absolutely should be a state of israel 924 00:40:19,930 --> 00:40:17,640 and and that takes number one priority 925 00:40:23,390 --> 00:40:19,940 over other concerns in the Middle East 926 00:40:25,549 --> 00:40:23,400 well yeah I mean yikes not Mike's not 927 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:25,559 taking that seriously in England but I 928 00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:26,970 just think it's interesting that abroad 929 00:40:31,849 --> 00:40:30,960 he is he appeals to me because I like it 930 00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:31,859 when people take the piss out of the 931 00:40:36,289 --> 00:40:34,710 royal family and the idea that they're 932 00:40:38,180 --> 00:40:36,299 they're going haha they take off their 933 00:40:39,530 --> 00:40:38,190 masks and gobble up a bit of blood or 934 00:40:40,819 --> 00:40:39,540 something but that appealed to me a 935 00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:40,829 little bit again as a metaphor and 936 00:40:44,780 --> 00:40:42,720 humorous thing but you're right whip 937 00:40:46,609 --> 00:40:44,790 there are people that take him seriously 938 00:40:49,970 --> 00:40:46,619 even in the you can but I mean though 939 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:49,980 well yeah because all you do trout and 940 00:40:54,710 --> 00:40:52,410 people pay on sales books yes but then I 941 00:40:56,780 --> 00:40:54,720 mean so does homeopathy and and and so 942 00:40:58,579 --> 00:40:56,790 does lots of other nonsense and yeah 943 00:41:00,440 --> 00:40:58,589 it's exciting to feel that you've tapped 944 00:41:02,750 --> 00:41:00,450 into a secret that nobody else is aware 945 00:41:04,460 --> 00:41:02,760 of isn't it mmm I mean the trouble is 946 00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:04,470 leader what he's done is he's based a 947 00:41:10,730 --> 00:41:05,910 lot of his beliefs on science fiction 948 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:10,740 movies and V the then I think 1970s 949 00:41:15,049 --> 00:41:12,690 showing my age I think was lights a TV 950 00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:15,059 series about about this this this group 951 00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:17,520 of this elite group working with the 952 00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:20,190 government taking over the media taking 953 00:41:24,370 --> 00:41:22,319 over industry and actually being these 954 00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:24,380 horrible Nazi parasites yeah well the 955 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:26,910 original show was a parody of the actual 956 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:29,010 nazi apparatus how they took over so 957 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:31,290 that's was coming from and it also 958 00:41:35,299 --> 00:41:33,210 showed ordinary American citizens 959 00:41:37,370 --> 00:41:35,309 becoming terrorists against him it was 960 00:41:39,230 --> 00:41:37,380 he was the Battlestar Galactica yes 961 00:41:42,109 --> 00:41:39,240 obviously if I think I think we might be 962 00:41:42,830 --> 00:41:42,119 geeking now I look look that's fine look 963 00:41:45,110 --> 00:41:42,840 at it goes 964 00:41:47,060 --> 00:41:45,120 because you can get away with me because 965 00:41:48,260 --> 00:41:47,070 I must say that I was a big supporter of 966 00:41:51,050 --> 00:41:48,270 the second season of battlestar 967 00:41:52,610 --> 00:41:51,060 galactica when they came to earth and no 968 00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:52,620 one ever put that in the Canon that was 969 00:41:56,210 --> 00:41:54,510 not allowed but Battlestar Galactica 970 00:41:57,860 --> 00:41:56,220 1980 with it where the Cylons came to 971 00:42:00,260 --> 00:41:57,870 earth and put out fires forest fires and 972 00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:00,270 became nice co-author of course I did 973 00:42:03,980 --> 00:42:02,400 mean I see the second season though we 974 00:42:06,770 --> 00:42:03,990 did we were just kick it was a green oh 975 00:42:09,590 --> 00:42:06,780 yeah this is the Doctor Who clubbers now 976 00:42:11,690 --> 00:42:09,600 and not the skeptics yeah hey I liked 977 00:42:13,460 --> 00:42:11,700 the unpopular doctor the one that the 978 00:42:15,740 --> 00:42:13,470 one that came after Tom Baker I liked 979 00:42:16,850 --> 00:42:15,750 him because he was nice uh no I must be 980 00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:16,860 the one after that the one that punched 981 00:42:22,220 --> 00:42:19,110 and was known as the unpopular doctor oh 982 00:42:24,590 --> 00:42:22,230 the vet I we really can we get back to 983 00:42:27,710 --> 00:42:24,600 skeptic what do you think is the most 984 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:27,720 dangerous conspiracy at a ball one that 985 00:42:30,770 --> 00:42:29,490 might seem harmless or the one that you 986 00:42:33,740 --> 00:42:30,780 think is the most dangerous it's got to 987 00:42:37,370 --> 00:42:33,750 be anti-vaccination absolutely i mean i 988 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:37,380 kept I kept referring during the talk to 989 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:40,290 well you know maybe skeptics are a 990 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:42,810 little bit silly because we take we take 991 00:42:46,820 --> 00:42:44,370 off you know we're the only ones who 992 00:42:48,290 --> 00:42:46,830 take this stuff seriously the public ice 993 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:48,300 about to say the British public the 994 00:42:51,830 --> 00:42:50,370 public will listen to these crazy 995 00:42:53,540 --> 00:42:51,840 theories and thing I yeah that's very 996 00:42:55,940 --> 00:42:53,550 funny you know lizards and I kind of 997 00:42:59,190 --> 00:42:55,950 thing but anti-vaccination is one where 998 00:43:01,349 --> 00:42:59,200 people are actually dying and 999 00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:01,359 I think you know from a political point 1000 00:43:06,180 --> 00:43:03,310 of view if people want to identify the 1001 00:43:07,470 --> 00:43:06,190 mother of all conspiracy theories it's 1002 00:43:10,530 --> 00:43:07,480 got to be the one that Hitler came up 1003 00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:10,540 with and six million people ended up 1004 00:43:16,740 --> 00:43:13,300 dying I think that's that's an example 1005 00:43:18,660 --> 00:43:16,750 of what can happen once you go down this 1006 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:18,670 irrational route you know I'm in the ass 1007 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:20,050 but you could argue that religion is 1008 00:43:24,510 --> 00:43:22,690 conspiracy theory certainly creationism 1009 00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:24,520 is a conspiracy theory because there's 1010 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:26,800 an absolute the only way in which the 1011 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:29,650 creationist case makes sense is that all 1012 00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:30,970 these scientists are deliberately 1013 00:43:35,970 --> 00:43:34,270 colluding to fake information so that's 1014 00:43:38,130 --> 00:43:35,980 probably the one that's most active in 1015 00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:38,140 the world today but yeah look at 1016 00:43:44,130 --> 00:43:40,240 anti-vaccination and the harmless doing 1017 00:43:46,829 --> 00:43:44,140 and and in all your studies you're a 1018 00:43:48,839 --> 00:43:46,839 learned man you're a man of politics is 1019 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:48,849 there one conspiracy theory that you 1020 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:50,650 would kind of like to be real he'd go 1021 00:43:54,089 --> 00:43:52,690 out that would be good that would solve 1022 00:43:55,589 --> 00:43:54,099 a few problems that would answer a few 1023 00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:55,599 questions if that was real is there one 1024 00:44:00,930 --> 00:43:57,280 you would like to be real well good 1025 00:44:04,050 --> 00:44:00,940 question yeah yeah if it was true better 1026 00:44:06,359 --> 00:44:04,060 george bush and co-organized 911 then 1027 00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:06,369 our job of discrediting the right wing 1028 00:44:12,660 --> 00:44:09,520 and destroying the neo-cons forever 1029 00:44:14,730 --> 00:44:12,670 would be so easy all we would have to do 1030 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:14,740 is prove that they were behind it and 1031 00:44:18,329 --> 00:44:16,810 they would never get elected again I'm 1032 00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:18,339 saying with the Kennedy one you know if 1033 00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:19,960 you could prove to the American public 1034 00:44:26,339 --> 00:44:22,960 that the establishment had assassinated 1035 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:26,349 witless loved character there would be a 1036 00:44:30,780 --> 00:44:29,050 revolution overnight leave out Lee 1037 00:44:32,339 --> 00:44:30,790 Harvey did the hit quickly how he looked 1038 00:44:33,780 --> 00:44:32,349 very surprised when they said did you 1039 00:44:35,670 --> 00:44:33,790 shoot he was like I didn't do it he 1040 00:44:36,900 --> 00:44:35,680 looked he looked a very surprised well 1041 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:36,910 you don't necessarily have to believe 1042 00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:38,650 seedy establishment killed JFK to 1043 00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:40,240 believe the pantheon he might have been 1044 00:44:44,220 --> 00:44:42,250 a patsy mmm who knows I mean the point 1045 00:44:45,660 --> 00:44:44,230 is we don't know and secrets are kept 1046 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:45,670 from us which is what I was saying 1047 00:44:49,740 --> 00:44:47,650 earlier about Abu Ghraib but you still 1048 00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:49,750 have to be rational you can't just go 1049 00:44:52,620 --> 00:44:51,250 you know you can't just grab this ball 1050 00:44:55,020 --> 00:44:52,630 and go running off where you want with 1051 00:44:56,660 --> 00:44:55,030 it any evidence has to back you up what 1052 00:45:00,210 --> 00:44:56,670 you pointed out to is that all these 1053 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:00,220 extreme theories about 911 for example 1054 00:45:06,089 --> 00:45:03,010 could mask something simpler than pure 1055 00:45:07,150 --> 00:45:06,099 in competence and post covering up the 1056 00:45:08,410 --> 00:45:07,160 event that 1057 00:45:10,090 --> 00:45:08,420 maybe they knew was going to happen or 1058 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:10,100 they just they got it wrong and they've 1059 00:45:14,530 --> 00:45:11,810 been covering their ass that maybe these 1060 00:45:15,970 --> 00:45:14,540 large theories cover that well this is 1061 00:45:18,010 --> 00:45:15,980 what makes me angry about them I think 1062 00:45:19,540 --> 00:45:18,020 there are so many very simple in 1063 00:45:21,450 --> 00:45:19,550 justices that need addressing we look 1064 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:21,460 what happened to those Bangladeshi 1065 00:45:26,110 --> 00:45:24,050 factory workers recently in that fire 1066 00:45:27,850 --> 00:45:26,120 you know that's the kind of thing that 1067 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:27,860 people should be angry about on a day to 1068 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:31,130 day basis the appalling wages that are 1069 00:45:36,910 --> 00:45:32,810 paid to people who produce staples like 1070 00:45:38,470 --> 00:45:36,920 coffee and the this slave system that we 1071 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:38,480 have running across the world people 1072 00:45:42,070 --> 00:45:40,130 should be angry about suppose you can 1073 00:45:43,930 --> 00:45:42,080 you can do you can yes you can do 1074 00:45:45,850 --> 00:45:43,940 something about that bill directly then 1075 00:45:48,490 --> 00:45:45,860 you can actually finding their thermite 1076 00:45:50,650 --> 00:45:48,500 yeah yeah every political hard case 1077 00:45:52,090 --> 00:45:50,660 hardcore campaigner that I know I'm 1078 00:45:54,490 --> 00:45:52,100 talking about really been to jail for 1079 00:45:56,530 --> 00:45:54,500 their beliefs they do not have any truck 1080 00:45:59,350 --> 00:45:56,540 with conspiracy theories because they 1081 00:46:02,470 --> 00:45:59,360 all say all right supposing it is true 1082 00:46:04,270 --> 00:46:02,480 right that the government organized 911 1083 00:46:07,150 --> 00:46:04,280 what you want me to do that i'm not 1084 00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:07,160 doing already yeah i'm trying to depose 1085 00:46:11,350 --> 00:46:09,440 these people i'm trying to so strengthen 1086 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:11,360 democracy i'm trying to make the world a 1087 00:46:15,610 --> 00:46:13,130 better place what is it you actually 1088 00:46:17,050 --> 00:46:15,620 want me to do if i agree with you what 1089 00:46:18,910 --> 00:46:17,060 how does it actually make any difference 1090 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:18,920 to how I behave on a day-to-day basis 1091 00:46:22,750 --> 00:46:21,170 none yeah and I'd like some evidence 1092 00:46:24,010 --> 00:46:22,760 before I go and get myself in jail I'd 1093 00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:24,020 like some evidence of what I'm doing 1094 00:46:27,430 --> 00:46:26,000 yeah and then there's the other thing 1095 00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:27,440 about like if you if you just believe 1096 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:30,110 conspiracy theories then your objective 1097 00:46:33,610 --> 00:46:31,490 is to convince other people that the 1098 00:46:35,050 --> 00:46:33,620 conspiracy theory is true there isn't 1099 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:35,060 actually somebody you can go and lobby 1100 00:46:39,730 --> 00:46:37,730 you can't go to your company it's so big 1101 00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:39,740 you can't do anything that's a good 1102 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:41,510 excuse for doing nothing yeah and also 1103 00:46:46,570 --> 00:46:43,610 you can't lose I mean people who go and 1104 00:46:49,570 --> 00:46:46,580 occupy a forest that's about to be cut 1105 00:46:51,580 --> 00:46:49,580 down by loggers can lose you know and 1106 00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:51,590 that's humiliating I miss Amelie ating 1107 00:46:57,180 --> 00:46:54,110 to lose a political campaign whereas it 1108 00:46:59,920 --> 00:46:57,190 as a truther how how can you lose 1109 00:47:02,080 --> 00:46:59,930 because you know the truth there isn't 1110 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:02,090 there isn't a set objective to your 1111 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:03,650 campaign but there might be a few 1112 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:04,970 friends of the earth and you say you 1113 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:06,410 know we're going to make sure this BAM 1114 00:47:09,730 --> 00:47:07,330 doesn't have 1115 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:09,740 you could win or lose these people could 1116 00:47:14,650 --> 00:47:11,930 never lose and yet they draw enormous 1117 00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:14,660 emotional comfort from the friend asking 1118 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:16,640 tonight when enough is enough when the 1119 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:18,050 skeptical movement should consider a 1120 00:47:23,110 --> 00:47:20,330 battle won on a personal level or runner 1121 00:47:24,460 --> 00:47:23,120 a blog posting but when do you go now 1122 00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:24,470 I'm walking away from arguing with this 1123 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:28,160 person mmm that's a tricky one because 1124 00:47:30,850 --> 00:47:29,690 because you judging for a little what 1125 00:47:33,310 --> 00:47:30,860 you're saying there you hang on for a 1126 00:47:34,870 --> 00:47:33,320 while you determine bastard oh yeah I 1127 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:34,880 know you could have been you've got to 1128 00:47:39,010 --> 00:47:36,770 be the dog you know the dog yapping at 1129 00:47:40,450 --> 00:47:39,020 the ankles of need um I don't think you 1130 00:47:42,550 --> 00:47:40,460 should get up give up because there's an 1131 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:42,560 audience listening there's an audience 1132 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:44,690 listening to what you're saying and and 1133 00:47:49,870 --> 00:47:46,610 if you can if you can't change the mind 1134 00:47:52,570 --> 00:47:49,880 of the of the creationist or the 911 1135 00:47:54,370 --> 00:47:52,580 truther you know if you're arguing on 1136 00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:54,380 youtube or if you're arguing on Facebook 1137 00:47:58,480 --> 00:47:56,720 there are people listening you know and 1138 00:48:00,280 --> 00:47:58,490 the public is listening and I think you 1139 00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:00,290 know you you demonstrate what 1140 00:48:04,030 --> 00:48:01,730 rationality is and you make it 1141 00:48:06,340 --> 00:48:04,040 attractive and you make it the humorous 1142 00:48:09,790 --> 00:48:06,350 point of view and you make it the calm 1143 00:48:12,370 --> 00:48:09,800 reasonable one yeah I think you do it 1144 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:12,380 because people are listening and you 1145 00:48:16,750 --> 00:48:14,210 know what else changes the world other 1146 00:48:19,060 --> 00:48:16,760 than debating and taking action and 1147 00:48:20,350 --> 00:48:19,070 where can we read listen and look at 1148 00:48:22,030 --> 00:48:20,360 what your run about and what you've been 1149 00:48:23,710 --> 00:48:22,040 debating what if you want to if you want 1150 00:48:25,450 --> 00:48:23,720 to see where I'm coming from politically 1151 00:48:30,970 --> 00:48:25,460 you can go to my website which is polyp 1152 00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:30,980 which is pol YP dog died UK polyps as in 1153 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:34,250 coral reefs and yeah you can you can see 1154 00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:35,330 what I have to say there and there's 1155 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:36,710 also all comes the links that you could 1156 00:48:39,730 --> 00:48:37,970 pursue if you go to their site and 1157 00:48:41,470 --> 00:48:39,740 you've got need any more updates here in 1158 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:41,480 Australia before you go yeah just before 1159 00:48:44,650 --> 00:48:42,770 we go and one of the things that I 1160 00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:44,660 politically believe in is cooperation 1161 00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:46,790 and I've just recently published a book 1162 00:48:51,970 --> 00:48:48,880 the history of the co-operative movement 1163 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:51,980 and it also what chapter 3 of that of 1164 00:48:56,050 --> 00:48:53,690 that graphic novel looks of the science 1165 00:48:59,520 --> 00:48:56,060 behind cooperation and the fact that 1166 00:49:02,740 --> 00:48:59,530 this this lime we've been sold about 1167 00:49:05,290 --> 00:49:02,750 nature red in tooth and claw and some 1168 00:49:07,180 --> 00:49:05,300 extend the selfish gene although I 1169 00:49:09,370 --> 00:49:07,190 wouldn't want to criticize same Richard 1170 00:49:10,810 --> 00:49:09,380 of Oxford and we have some interesting 1171 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:10,820 things to say about that so if people 1172 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:12,050 want to come along to that book launch 1173 00:49:17,860 --> 00:49:15,530 that's that's at Abby's bookshop on York 1174 00:49:18,789 --> 00:49:17,870 Street at six o'clock on the fourth of 1175 00:49:19,929 --> 00:49:18,799 July 1176 00:49:21,969 --> 00:49:19,939 if people want to come along there's 1177 00:49:24,039 --> 00:49:21,979 another debate to be had there and one 1178 00:49:26,289 --> 00:49:24,049 last pointed question did you buy a copy 1179 00:49:31,569 --> 00:49:26,299 of ding dong the witch is dead recently 1180 00:49:33,309 --> 00:49:31,579 I produced the t-shirt I really did I 1181 00:49:35,079 --> 00:49:33,319 produced the teacher say no which is 1182 00:49:38,699 --> 00:49:35,089 that were you on the people dancing 1183 00:49:41,380 --> 00:49:38,709 dancing on I've missed it all I was here 1184 00:49:43,359 --> 00:49:41,390 and it was great to have you here in the 1185 00:49:44,589 --> 00:49:43,369 country at the skeptics in the pub and 1186 00:49:45,939 --> 00:49:44,599 do have another drink and thanks for 1187 00:50:00,440 --> 00:49:45,949 chatting to us yeah no problem at all 1188 00:50:04,020 --> 00:50:02,310 have you heard the one about how the 1189 00:50:05,790 --> 00:50:04,030 Illuminati in conjunction with the US 1190 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:05,800 government are hiding the existence of 1191 00:50:10,020 --> 00:50:07,570 aliens in order to ensure the supply of 1192 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:10,030 helium is kept low or that the CIA the 1193 00:50:13,050 --> 00:50:11,290 militant wing of the Freemasons are 1194 00:50:14,490 --> 00:50:13,060 working with the elders of zion to take 1195 00:50:17,010 --> 00:50:14,500 control of the population of the world 1196 00:50:18,780 --> 00:50:17,020 through fluoridated chemtrails canberra 1197 00:50:20,250 --> 00:50:18,790 skeptics incorporated on behalf of the 1198 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:20,260 shadow government will be massing an 1199 00:50:24,510 --> 00:50:21,970 array of dark forces for the australian 1200 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:24,520 skeptics national convention 2013 this 1201 00:50:27,930 --> 00:50:26,290 convention has conspired to coincide 1202 00:50:30,210 --> 00:50:27,940 with the 50th anniversary of the 1203 00:50:31,860 --> 00:50:30,220 assassination of John F Kennedy possibly 1204 00:50:33,900 --> 00:50:31,870 the most famous conspiracy theory of all 1205 00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:33,910 time if you've ever wanted to learn 1206 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:35,770 about the truth behind the death of JFK 1207 00:50:39,570 --> 00:50:37,690 what makes for a good conspiracy theory 1208 00:50:41,580 --> 00:50:39,580 and why they're so prevalent Canberra 1209 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:41,590 skeptics invites you to attend that is 1210 00:50:46,350 --> 00:50:43,330 of course should you choose to accept it 1211 00:50:48,750 --> 00:50:46,360 come to national skeptics convention org 1212 00:50:59,849 --> 00:50:48,760 and just remember they will be watching 1213 00:51:04,029 --> 00:51:02,380 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1214 00:51:05,170 --> 00:51:04,039 zone now while I've been a little bit 1215 00:51:09,359 --> 00:51:05,180 under the weather lately with this 1216 00:51:12,549 --> 00:51:09,369 rotten sinus infection I've ever been 1217 00:51:14,829 --> 00:51:12,559 spending some time making a new range of 1218 00:51:18,039 --> 00:51:14,839 my one of my hobbies doing origami 1219 00:51:21,730 --> 00:51:18,049 origami paper jewelry origami earrings 1220 00:51:24,730 --> 00:51:21,740 I've discovered that if I make them out 1221 00:51:26,170 --> 00:51:24,740 of bank notes like old Zimbabwe money 1222 00:51:28,089 --> 00:51:26,180 your money from around the world that's 1223 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:28,099 no longer in use you can buy it on ebay 1224 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:30,890 it really does make the most beautiful 1225 00:51:36,130 --> 00:51:33,890 origami because forgive me for going 1226 00:51:38,799 --> 00:51:36,140 often miss tangent listeners because 1227 00:51:42,370 --> 00:51:38,809 bank notes aren't usually not only very 1228 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:42,380 colorful but their detailed banknotes 1229 00:51:49,210 --> 00:51:44,690 are very very detailed well obviously to 1230 00:51:51,519 --> 00:51:49,220 try and counter counterfeiting anyway 1231 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:51,529 the results are very pleasing I thought 1232 00:51:57,069 --> 00:51:54,650 I would just dumb mention that if you 1233 00:51:59,470 --> 00:51:57,079 follow me on Facebook there's a little 1234 00:52:01,990 --> 00:51:59,480 gallery there of some of my a little 1235 00:52:04,359 --> 00:52:02,000 bits of origami but for now for this 1236 00:52:05,710 --> 00:52:04,369 week and I hope I'm fully recovered for 1237 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:05,720 next week's show this is Richard 1238 00:52:14,109 --> 00:52:08,210 Saunders signing off from Sydney 1239 00:52:18,819 --> 00:52:14,119 Australia you've been listening to the 1240 00:52:22,510 --> 00:52:18,829 skeptic zone visit our website at www